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Texas Rocks!
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Author:  2fisted [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Texas Rocks!

Damn, MN could use a few more real Texans here... 8)

Quote:
Texan Kills Thieves: Hero or Homicidal?

Nov 26 08:12 PM US/Eastern
By LIZ AUSTIN PETERSON


HOUSTON (AP) - The cha-chick of a shell entering a shotgun's chamber rattled through the 911 line just before Joe Horn stepped out his front door.
Horn, 61, had phoned police when he saw two men break into his neighbor's suburban Houston home through a window in broad daylight. Now they were getting away with a bag of loot.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

He did.

Admirers, including several of his neighbors, say Horn is a hero for killing the burglars, protecting his neighborhood and sending a message to would-be criminals. Critics call him a loose cannon. His attorney says Horn just feared for his life.

Prosecuting Horn could prove difficult in Texas, where few people sympathize with criminals and many have an almost religious belief in the right to self-defense. The case could test the state's self- defense laws, which allow people to use deadly force in certain situations to protect themselves, their property and their neighbors' property.

Horn was home in Pasadena, about 15 miles southeast of Houston, on Nov. 14 when he heard glass breaking, said his attorney, Tom Lambright. He looked out the window and saw 38-year-old Miguel Antonio DeJesus and 30-year-old Diego Ortiz using a crowbar to break out the rest of the glass.

He grabbed a 12-gauge shotgun and called 911, Lambright said.

"Uh, I've got a shotgun," he told the dispatcher. "Uh, do you want me to stop them?"

"Nope, don't do that," the dispatcher responded. "Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"

Horn and the dispatcher spoke for several minutes, during which Horn pleaded with the dispatcher to someone to catch the men and vowed not to let them escape. Over and over, the dispatcher told him to stay inside. Horn repeatedly said he couldn't.

When the men crawled back out the window carrying a bag, Horn began to sound increasingly frantic.

"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said as a shell clicked into the chamber. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."

A few seconds passed.

"Move," Horn can be heard saying on the tape. "You're dead."

Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Horn redialed 911 and told the dispatcher what he'd done.

"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

Lambright said Horn had intended to take a look around when he left his house and instead came face to face with the burglars, standing 10 to 12 feet from him in his yard.

Horn is heavyset and middle-aged and would have been no match in a physical confrontation with the two men, who were young and strong, Lambright said. So when one or both of them "made lunging movements," Horn fired in self-defense, he said.

Family members of the two shooting victims have made few public statements.

Diamond Morgan, Ortiz's widow, who has an 8-month-old son with him, told Houston television station KTRK that she was stunned by Horn's statements on the 911 tape. "It's horrible," she said. "He was so eager, so eager to shoot."

The Associated Press could not find a telephone listing for Morgan.

Pasadena police were still investigating Monday and planned to present their findings to Harris County prosecutors within the next two weeks, police spokesman Vance Mitchell said. From there, it is expected to be presented to a grand jury. In the meantime, Horn remains uncharged.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they could otherwise be killed. In some cases, people also can use deadly force to protect their neighbors' property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

At issue is whether it was reasonable for Horn to fear the men and whether his earlier threats on the 911 call showed he planned to kill them no matter what, said Fred C. Moss, who teaches criminal law at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.

Author:  devil [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:20 am ]
Post subject: 

I suppose if I was presented with any reasonably justifiable situation in which I might be able to kill someone, I'd seize the opportunity.

I think the guy just needed to taste some blood, but I'm not going to judge.




I guess that's just how I roll.

Author:  Microwaved [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:42 am ]
Post subject: 

Everyone who reads that article knows that that dude just wanted to reap some vigilante justice on those illegals! And everyone how read that article knows that that dude is never going to get charged for this. REVOLTING COCKS ARE GOD!

Author:  +jamison+ [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Texas Rocks!

2fisted wrote:
Boom.

Click.

Boom.

Click.

Boom.


Dig that crazy beat!

Author:  Rockula! [ Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

Being from Texas I have to say two things

1- Right fucking on
2- Pooh pooh this all you like, but people are sick of being victimized

You can cry "vigilante" all you like but that guy was protecting, not only his neighbor but his entire neighborhood
When people are afraid of the criminals, the criminals win
In fact, the criminals have been winning ever since they were given more rights than the victim
We're not talking about some fuzzy gray area crime where the guilty cannot be identified immediately
These guys were committing a felony and then made threatening actions towards the man
DESPITE THE FACT THAT HE HAD A SHOTGUN IN HIS HANDS!!!!!
How much more evidence do you need that those people were counting on him to be just like every other person who is more concerned with their own skin than the well being of their community?
Criminals thrive on our apathy
You might as well invite them into your own home

BTW Fisty
Remember this the next time you accuse me of being a liberal

Author:  evilgod [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:41 am ]
Post subject: 

that is kind of a weird case, but id prolly do the same, if they think they can break into my neighbors house, what makes them not break into mine? and if they are going to break into someones house, what makes them not likely to attack someone that happens to be there?

it was defense, i wouldnt convict him.

Author:  rskm1 [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:19 am ]
Post subject: 

If he shot the thieves in the back or something, well that's not cool, but otherwise, hell, he deserves the benefit of any doubts, since he announced himself and warned them not to move. Since he then fired at them, it seems more likely that they moved than that he ambushed them.

Not to mention, uhh, a trigger-happy vigilante wannabe probably wouldn't have called 911 first, hmm?

Author:  +jamison+ [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:33 am ]
Post subject: 

When I first read this I thought "Yee-Haw!" and started searching Priceline.com for cheap tickets to Houston, but then I calmed down and remembered that I too was once "caught" robbing a house*. Did I deserve to die for that? I don't think so. Why couldn't the guy just shoot the thieves in the leg? That would've stopped them and provided a painful lesson.



* Ninth grade. My friend told me it was his sisters house. We were sitting on the couch eating doritos and drinking "her" booze when the real owner came home. I knew something was up when my friend ran and hid in a closet when he heard the front door open. I ended up having to go to court, paying a fine, and I think I was put on probation, but what if the dude had pulled a gun out and killed me? That would have totally fucked up my summer.

Author:  2fisted [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 am ]
Post subject: 

rskm1 wrote:
Not to mention, uhh, a trigger-happy vigilante wannabe probably wouldn't have called 911 first, hmm?


Good point rskm1, I wonder if the thiefs had guns too? The poor guy trying to be a good sumaritan was prolly just trying to give them a warning shot...

Author:  evilgod [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:54 am ]
Post subject: 

+jamison+ wrote:
just shoot the thieves in the leg?


heh, with a 12 gauge, i dont think you can safely shoot someone at close range, anything you hit will prolly result in fatal blood loss.

Author:  Microwaved [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:27 am ]
Post subject: 

I'm having a hard time agreeing with you guys that think that this guy is some kind of hero that should be applauded for his actions. I'm all for killing some people that deserved to get killed, but I have a feeling this dude was after blood and he got it. He called 911 to save the skin on his ass not because he was trying to help. And honestly do you think these dudes would have charged a man holding a 12 guage. I know criminals can be desperate men, but the dude had the drop on them. I'm pretty sure they would have done just about anything he said.

Yeah, I got a problem with this.

Author:  rskm1 [ Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

Microwaved wrote:
He called 911 to save the skin on his ass not because he was trying to help.

WTF you are talking about? Explain.

Microwaved wrote:
And honestly do you think these dudes would have charged a man holding a 12 guage. I know criminals can be desperate men, but the dude had the drop on them. I'm pretty sure they would have done just about anything he said.

Gee, you'd have to be crazy to rush a guy who had a shotgun pointed at you. Nobody's that crazy.

Gee, you'd have to be crazy to break somebody's house window and make off with a bunch of their valuables in broad daylight. Nobody's that crazy.

:roll:

Author:  Microwaved [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:22 am ]
Post subject: 

He called 911 before he ever shot the dudes and told the operator he was going to kill them
Quote:
"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."


After he shoots the guys he then says this
Quote:
"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."


To me that sounds like somebody realizing they just did the wrong thing and trying to tell the authorities he was on the phone with that he had no choice "They were coming right for him" ala South Park. It just sounds too thought out to me. Not to mention several times the 911 operator told him not to leave the house.

Quote:
"Ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?"


I just don't like the way this is playing out at all. It sounds all too vigilante for me, and if our country has digressed so far into a society of Lord of the Flies then something needs to change really fast.

Author:  Frost [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:53 am ]
Post subject: 

devil wrote:
I suppose if I was presented with any reasonably justifiable situation in which I might be able to kill someone, I'd seize the opportunity.


I know a guy who joined the Marines for just this reason. He just wanted to know what it was like to kill somebody.

Author:  veinsplasher [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:43 pm ]
Post subject: 

Frost wrote:
I know a guy who joined the Marines for just this reason. He just wanted to know what it was like to kill somebody.


I hope he didn't sign up during peacetime. That'd suck.

Author:  thosquanta [ Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

can't he just kill a hooker like the rest of us?

Author:  rskm1 [ Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:54 am ]
Post subject: 

Microwaved wrote:
He called 911 before he ever shot the dudes and told the operator he was going to kill them
Quote:
"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."


After he shoots the guys he then says this
Quote:
"I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."


To me that sounds like somebody realizing they just did the wrong thing and trying to tell the authorities he was on the phone with that he had no choice "They were coming right for him" ala South Park. It just sounds too thought out to me. Not to mention several times the 911 operator told him not to leave the house.

Was it "premeditated"? Hell yeah, he had the gun ready when he called 911. So what??? He didn't shoot them and THEN call 911!
Since you appear to be a selective reader, here it is again in bigger letters:
Quote:
Horn and the dispatcher spoke for several minutes, during which Horn pleaded with the dispatcher to someone to catch the men

Umm, that sounds to me like he dialed 911 HOPING THAT SOME COPS WOULD COME AND STOP THE BURGLARS. How is that "saving his own skin"? If he was worried about his own skin, he could've simply done nothing and been in no danger whatsoever.

Microwaved wrote:
I just don't like the way this is playing out at all. It sounds all too vigilante for me, and if our country has digressed so far into a society of Lord of the Flies then something needs to change really fast.

Well, if you prefer a society that's "advanced" to the point where robbery becomes commonplace and nobody does anything about it, well... post your address, and a time when you'll be away for awhile. ;-)

Author:  Rockula! [ Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

That was a very accurate way to make my point as well

Author:  Microwaved [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:48 am ]
Post subject: 

You're right, for some reason when I read through that originally I missed that point. It still doesn't change the fact that I think this dude wanted to kill somebody. I refuse to think this guy is some kind of hero for killing two dudes that were robbing his neighbors place. I don't think it's right at all. But I guess that is just my morals and they obviously aren't representative of a lot of the other members here. Now if they would have broken in, raped and murdered the family then shoot them mother fuckers and put their heads on pikes outside the front door. But just robbing the place, there were other alternatives. IMHO.

Author:  Rockula! [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:55 am ]
Post subject: 

I think the point being missed is that, no matter what they guy's intentions were when he started out, those guys made threatening motions towards him even while it was evident he had a deadly weapon in his hands
If you are enough of a hardcore criminal to rush a guy with a shotgun then you don't belong in my society

Author:  rskm1 [ Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

Rockula! wrote:
I think the point being missed is that, no matter what they guy's intentions were when he started out, those guys made threatening motions towards him even while it was evident he had a deadly weapon in his hands
If you are enough of a hardcore criminal to rush a guy with a shotgun then you don't belong in my society

Exactly. If the burglars had dropped the stuff, put their hands in the air, turned, and RUN, and the dude shot them in the back anyway, then you're right, I'm wrong, and HE belongs in jail.

But that doesn't sound like what went down, given the limited information we have so far. It seems pretty clear that these mofos RUSHED a guy who had the drop on them with a shotgun. Just imagine what they would've done had they been confronted by a couple youngsters or an unarmed wife inside the house!

Boom click boom click boom, cheer cheer cheer, I say!

Author:  zom-zom [ Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Fuck this fatass murdering would-be cowboy. He enjoyed himself. Go to jail.

Author:  Microwaved [ Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:39 am ]
Post subject: 

zom-zom wrote:
Fuck this fatass murdering would-be cowboy. He enjoyed himself. Go to jail.


Yep that's what I was trying to say.

Author:  2fisted [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

If this good sumaritan goes to jail it will send a message to all the thieves that robbery is ok. & anyone who wants to defend thier niegborhoods that they shouldnt bother w/ 911. Just shoot em & say "I was caught by suprise & had to defend myself"... the police can't help.

I've been Burglerised 3 times, car busted into 4-5 times, friends murdered for $40, jumped for kicks, attempted murder of my mom... all random thug behavior.
Fuck the thiefs, they should think twice next time, they are to blame.

Author:  zom-zom [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

He's not a "good sumaritan", whatever that means. He's a murderer. No better than any of the idiots that murder anyone else.

"Send a message that robbery is ok" is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Do you think thieves care?

This murdering fatass is an idiot. He deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail like any other murderer. Or maybe he should get the death penalty since it's Texas and you and all the other bloodthirsty crybabies whine for revenge.

Thieves are not going to be swayed by this shotgun-toting moron, they will continue to steal things without any concern that Cowboy Jackass might try to shoot them. If anything, they'll be more likely to be armed and there will be more blood shed, most likely of the inexperienced homeowner with his new gun.

Author:  thosquanta [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

hrm. i actually thought there were some pretty good studies out there correlating the legalization of concealed weapons with a drop in crime.

this story is only semi-related, granted, but...

Quote:
Thieves are not going to be swayed by this shotgun-toting moron


might not be born out by the facts. (in a general sense, not this specific instance)

course, i'm far too lazy to look this shit up.

Author:  zom-zom [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:04 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well, crime is up in Minneapolis.

Crime always goes up when the economy is in bad shape, like it is now. Plan for the economy to get worse, and for crime to increase. That's the current trend. More guns=more crime. Guess what? Thieves frequently steal guns. I had a .22 pistol stolen from my house years ago. It was, I thought, well-hidden. They know where to look. This gun most likely was used for subsequent burglaries, robberies, who know what else.

I still have guns. If someone was actually in my home and there was a threat to my life, sure, I'd shoot.

This idiot decided that two human lives were worth less than what the thieves were carrying. He definitely did not have to kill them.
You can aim a shotgun well enough to hit just the legs. He didn't.

Author:  rskm1 [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

zom-zom wrote:
Thieves are not going to be swayed by this shotgun-toting moron, they will continue to steal things without any concern that Cowboy Jackass might try to shoot them.

Well, I know a couple of 'em that won't be stealin' anything else...

Author:  manna_panna [ Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

Killing someone changes who you are. You have blood on your hands; figuratively or literally. This man is forever stained by his actions and he's going to have to make peace with himself over that. But that doesn't mean he gets away without legal punishment. Stopping a crime does not put one above the law if one must commit a crime to do it.

Author:  Rockula! [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

And that is exactly the line of thinking that allows the criminal to have an advantage over, not only mere citizens, but the police as well
Why worry about someone defending their community when people are to worried about the repercussions of said defense
After all, it is better to allow yourself and your community to be victimized than to risk the backlash
It comes down to the idea of the snctity of human life
I personally believe if you become a social liability then you need to be removed from society

Author:  manna_panna [ Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

I didn't say people *shouldn't* defend themselves. I said they shouldn't expect to be let off the hook.

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