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 Class Research - What is "goth porn"? 
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Post Class Research - What is "goth porn"?
Hello everyone :)

I hope this post does not come as an intrusion in your forums. If other members and moderators find it inappropriate, I will understand its removal.

My (nick)name is Mayuki and I am currently a student in an English class at the University of Illinois focusing on the Goth(ic) (sub)culture(s). In the framework of this class, I have been asked to make a presentation on a Goth(ic) “artifact” of my choice. Not a whole lot of students have done their presentation yet, but things have been pretty tame so far and I felt like taking a little more “risks” by tackling the subject of Goth(ic) “erotica”/”pornography” with my peers. While all presentations so far have focused on what students have read about the topics/artifacts they chose (one person talked about an old Gothic novel, another about the Ankh sign, yet another about an on-line store that sells Goth-inspired objects), I wanted to create a real discussion going on this topic with people who, like some of you (I think), identify with the Goth(ic) culture instead of simply regurgitating what scholars might say on the subject or, well, making things up. I am really interested in knowing what you think about it and to share your thoughts with the other students in my class.

My main question, I guess, would be something like, “Is there something ‘out there’ that can be defined as truly Goth(ic) erotica and/or pornography?” and, if there is, “What does it look like and how is it different from ‘mainstream’ or ‘commercial’ erotica and/or pornography?”

The reason why I ask this question is because I feel that, in the same way as parts of the Goth(ic) culture has been ‘commercialized’ to appeal to people that might not be clearly identifying themselves as Goth(ic) individuals, it seems to me that part of today’s “sex industry” is using Goth(ic) imagery to sell some of its products. The thing I am wondering is whether these pictures (or videos) (I won’t link to sites for now, but can if moderators allow me to) actually appeal to you, or if you feel they are deforming the Goth(ic) aesthetics (and ideas) you believe in. Do you feel that these “Goth erotica/porn” pictures are mainly directed to a mainstream audience that does not really care about Goth(ic) subculture or that Goths will enjoy them as well? Is erotica/pornography compatible with Goth(ic) ideas? Is it a good or a bad thing (for the culture you identify yourselves with) that such form of erotica should become more and more popular? For many of these “Goth porn sites”, Goth and BDSM are often connected. Should it be so? And, last but not least, what would be your very own definition of “Goth(ic) erotica/porn” and do you feel that there are examples of that available?

I started thinking about the subject when I first heard of the Suicide Girls website (which some of you might have heard of) and how it presents itself as an “alternative” to mainstream erotic/porn sites. The site tends to emphasize its “punk” roots, but some of its models present themselves as “Goths” (which is of course not necessarily mutually exclusive). Yet, there has also been a lot of talks about how Suicide Girls might be, after all, only a disguised mainstream site which (possibly) exploited some of its models and which, on the whole, mainly targets a mainstream audience and not so much alternatives ones. What do you think?

Thanks a lot for reading this far and, in anticipation, thanks a lot for considering sharing your thoughts about the subject with me and other members of the forum. I feel a little awkward, almost rude, simply “popping in” here, being very interested in Goth and Gothic cultures but not identifying myself as a member of these cultures. I hope you understand that I will do my best to be as respectful as I can of the thoughts you would be ready to share and, it goes without saying, I will both be involved in the discussion that might follow this post and keep you posted on the conversation that will follow in class (which will take place in early November). So that you know, I’m posting this on a couple of Goth(ic)-related forums and Facebook pages, so don’t be surprised if you see it elsewhere (this does not mean it’s spam, it’s just that I try to cover as much ground as I can) ;-)

Again, thanks a lot in advance!

Mayuki


Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:53 pm
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I feel for you because of the joke replies that are coming your way.

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Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:00 pm
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i was going to say the same thing as veinsplasher. good luck on your project and i hope you have thick skin :)


Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:05 pm
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naked chicks are cool. if they've got black hair and eye liner, more power to em.

this seems a bit more well worded than the stuff we'd normally trash, so i doubt it will be that bad.



maybe i just say that because i know devil and drok like naked ladies too.

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Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:14 pm
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Quote:
I feel for you because of the joke replies that are coming your way.


Hehehe... yeah, it's hard to avoid that but, hey, that's alright :P
Again, I prefer that than reading second-hand accounts (books, articles...) about what you guys think, though. It's a lot more interactive...
And if someone wants to get a kick poking fun at me, no problem!


Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:25 pm
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"Mainstream" porn predominantly features buxom tanned chicks. *snore*

So a site like suicidegirls is genuinely representing "alternate" taste and culture, with all its waifish, pale, pierced and tattooed freaky chicks.

Now, the whole schpiel they give about "empowering" the models and blah blah blah, all tends to fall apart under any sort of scrutiny. It's still ultimately a BUSINESS, and (oh the shock and horror!) EXPLOITS its employees/models to make a profit. But that's on the business end of things, and hardly seems pertinent to what you're studying.


Mayuki wrote:
My main question, I guess, would be something like, “Is there something ‘out there’ that can be defined as truly Goth(ic) erotica and/or pornography?” and, if there is, “What does it look like and how is it different from ‘mainstream’ or ‘commercial’ erotica and/or pornography?”

Nekkid chix wif fangs FTW!!! LOL!!!shift-1!!!!

Or, anyone wearing a strap-on AND a corset...

Also note that while not "one and the same" by any means, gothic subculture does tend to have a lot of overlap with the BDSM scene, which could be a whole study of its own.

So add "anyone wearing excessive eyeliner and a studded dog collar" to the list, also.


Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:43 pm
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Necrophilia is the only true Goth Pornos.


Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:47 pm
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Oh yeah, and there's another "art" site besides suicidegirls that you might want to *cough* "research", but I can't remember the exact name of it. It's something like "almostevil.com" or something along those lines.
I'll edit this post if it comes to me later, unless somebody else knows what I'm talking about and corrects me.


|EDIT: Ah-ha, barelyevil.com [NSFW!!]. Although, oddly enough, there IS an almostevilgirls.net that I'd never heard of but stumbled across while trying to remember barelyevil.com


Last edited by rskm1 on Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:50 pm
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zom-zom wrote:
Necrophilia is the only true Goth Pornos.


so....like, having sex with you, then?


HA HA!


another "you're old" joke!

i so funny.

and rob: there is blueblood and gods girls...

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Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:45 pm
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Someone needs to read a few Poppy Z. Brite novels, then change the question to "Is there something out there that can be defined as truly GOOD Gothic erotica and/or pornography?”

If you find it, report back here!

Of course after cutting your teeth (was that a pun?) on Poppy, you don't need to answer that second part of your question.


Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:26 pm
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I salute you, zom. that's both the best and worst answer available.

Almost no one involved with this board, formerly known as Gothling.com, seems to actually identify themselves as "goth" or "gothic" in public anymore. Peculiarly, some of the club nights and radio stations around here (*cough*chamber*cough* *cough*locustlecture*cough*) advertise as "Gothic/Industrial" but won't actually play much or any music usually identified as "gothic", sticking closely to the "industrial" side of that subcategory. I don't really understand why they still keep the G word in the advertising.

Anyway, both of those subcategories and which ever splinter sects surround them are pretty sexualized in message and intent. Myself, I miss the androgyny of the New Wave and New Romantic stuff. Overall "the dark side" is one of the groups that is more accepting of gender bending and queer and/or intersex folks. (Ever wonder why goth nights are almost always in gay nightclubs and bars?) Unless it's all about \m/ METAL \m/ in which case one has to spend a lot of energy defending one's heterosexual identity. For some reason.

"Industrial" porno is more likely to involve political themes (including nazi themes and/or gas masks) and fetishes such as bondage, domination, masochism and sadism. Though personally I had more appreciation for the urban decay stuff, see also http://www.shedworks.de.


Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:53 pm
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Mayuki,

Where else have you asked these questions and what other responses have you received?


Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:01 pm
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I will reply to this at length over the weekend. I just haven't had time.


Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:53 am
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It is really just PrOn with a real or imagined gothic aesthetic. I would give it no inherent meaning beyond that. It has been around for 30 years, it found some commercial success in recent years. One could argue for "acceptance" of "alternative" looks, but it never was about that really. It has no bearing on our lives beyond a few giggles imo. I say that actually knowing the people who do some of the sites mentioned (and people who have modeled on a number of sites.) It takes nothing away from a *killer* ride that has lasted for 30 years and will 30 more if one so chooses. The public is fickle. They'll fuck right off eventually. For now, it's a commodity that sells. It's silly to be for or against it really.

J


Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:39 am
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First of all, thank you for all your comments! I really appreciate it :)

rskm1, thank you for the links! I think I bumped into barelyevil.com at one point when I was "doing research", but I didn't know about almostevilgirls.net (which looks more like a blog, though). It is true that barelyevil.com does look quite similar to SG.

Zom-zom, I don't know if you're joking, half-joking or totally serious (you'll have to enlighten me :) - thosquanta, I wasn't sure how to read your answer to it, hehe ;)) but I actually find your answer interesting. I mean, if the one of the "aims" of a subculture like the goth one is to offer resistance to the mainstream and to avoid commercialization (which is what might be going on for the moment with the goth aesthetic?), then necrophilia somehow offers something that would definitely offer a strong way to defy commercialization. Would you agree that most members of a mainstream audience would get turned on by goth-looking models, but that implying necrophilia (we're not necessarily talking "real" necrophilia, here, but even just simply "staged" necrophilia) would be pushing things too far, and thus make it resistant to reappropriation? I might be overthinking it, or totally misunderstanding your point... please, everyone, feel free to correct/ammend me and comment :)

It's funny you should mention Poppy Z. Brite, Skywayman, because it's on our reading list (I haven't started it yet, though). I'm assuming from your comment that the author is a bad example for Gothic erotica. I'm wondering: how and why does he fail, according to you? Does he still point the way (even through failure) to what could be possibly "succesful" (in a non-commercial meaning of the term) Gothic erotica? Someone told me that Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty trilogy had something very gothic about it. Would you agree?
Oh, and the forums I have been posting on (other than this one) are gothtopic.com, gothic.net and gothicgirl.com. My thread on hauntingechoes.com was closed because many members are underage, but I had some interesting conversations with a moderator through private messages. Goth.net does not allow thread creation before posting 10 times, which I thought would be a little artificial for me to do, so I pm-ed a moderator but I'm still waiting for an answer. Vampirefreaks.com wouldn't let me create a thread after registration (saying I had to "wait") so, well, I'm waiting... If you know about other forums that would be interested in this conversation, please let me know! :) I was also thinking about posting on some Facebook pages, but haven't done it yet.

You comment on androgyny and glam is really interesting, alisgray. It was in the back of my mind when I was trying to picture a "purely" goth form of erotica/pornography, if only because it seems that glam rock has influenced gothic rock so much. Now, I'm wondering, could/does the acceptance and glorification of androgyny in the "musical" goth culture easily translate into erotic visual representations? "Should" goth porn/erotica reflect androgyny? Your comments on the current shift (?) from certain clubs to gay clubs is also very interesting. Could you tell me what exactly is happening? Could that also influence the way in which members of the goth subculture see themselves and, as a result, maybe the way they would connect to certain forms of erotica and not others?

I understand what you mean about the need not to phrase the issue in terms of "for or against", Noh and I take good note of it. I guess one way to look at it would be in terms of "closer or further removed", instead. What do you guys think? In the end, I think (but I might be wrong) that we'll agree that, in the end, erotica/porn is a commodity among others and, as such, it will naturally take the shape the consumers will want it to take. You seem to imply that the goth "twist" might be a phase (am I reading you correctly?) ... does everyone agree with it? What is going to kill it? What might keep it alive?

Again, thanks for your answers! I'll be looking forward to reading your (and other member's) further comments on the topic (and that of course include you, devil! :))


Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:27 pm
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Poppy Z Brite is to Anne Rice what Dean Koontz is to Stephen King. I'm sorry you have to waste time reading suck drek. I find vampires to be horrificly silly, and I can say the same about erotica. However, I love PRON of many different types, mostly visual and aural (<see what I did there!!!), as well as some stories. (check out Literotica.com).

Suicide Girls and Liz Viscious I lump in with the whole "Hot Topic" crowd. They reinforce pretty typical standards of beauty/eros. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it doesn't really do much for me. More on this over the weekend... (while I'm not at work and can do some research).

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Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:04 pm
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Mayuki

Just for clarifications sake, what is your definition of "Gothic?"

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Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:45 pm
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drok wrote:
Poppy Z Brite is to Anne Rice what Dean Koontz is to Stephen King. I'm sorry you have to waste time reading suck drek. I find vampires to be horrificly silly, and I can say the same about erotica. However, I love PRON of many different types, mostly visual and aural (<see what I did there!!!), as well as some stories. (check out Literotica.com).

Suicide Girls and Liz Viscious I lump in with the whole "Hot Topic" crowd. They reinforce pretty typical standards of beauty/eros. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it doesn't really do much for me. More on this over the weekend... (while I'm not at work and can do some research).


i dunno, i'd fuck some o those 13 year old hot topic chicks.

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alisgray wrote:
Peculiarly, some of the club nights and radio stations around here (*cough*chamber*cough* *cough*locustlecture*cough*)


Hey, I use goth & industrial to describe my show. Why didn't you make fun of me???

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Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:12 pm
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The whole goth-thing is embarrassing, "goth erotica" is even more embarrassing.

There is a very clear gender divide in what was the goth scene (goth has been dead for a while). Masculinity is defined by getting chunky, acquiring musical equipment, buying cool cds, while slowly loosing their hair. Femininity, is demonstrated by going out as much as possible, while wearing the skimpiest most over priced clothes you can find (this has very little to do with music).

Since vanity runs so high in the scene, a few perverts have made a startelling realization -- you can claim to be a "photographer" (translation -- you know how to use photoshop), then convince girls to get naked (under the guise of an artistic enterprise), and at the end of the day you can turn a profit on this.

I've also noticed a direct correlation that more attractive semi-naked people I see on a dance floor in a goth/industrical club night, the worse the music. The uglier your scene the better the music (of course, you'll always get your key token delegation of kids that look like space-marines).


Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:15 pm
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On a more serious note, if you want someone to weigh in on goth in any capacity look up Joshua Gunn, he's in the comm department at the Unviersity of Texas. Or Naida Zukic in the Comm department of the Southern Illinois University.


Last edited by Liighter on Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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If I understand the question being addressed to me: I don't quite see prOn in those terms. Back in the 80s and 90s you had 'zines like Propaganda, Carpe Noctem, Blueblood (still going) etc that were more actively involved in the dynamics of a subculture. These publications included all aspects of it: fashion, literature, music, some erotic photography etc. I would thus distinguish them from prOn with a gothic aesthetic. It isn't a matter of "gothic" prOn in 2008 being closer or further away from anything. It's just prOn serving a niche that currently has a profit margin. As I said, I do have friends involved with it .... but they were before "gothic" prOn really went anywhere. It's a catch-22 for them as to whether or not they keep going.

J


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Liighter wrote:
Masculinity is defined by getting chunky, acquiring musical equipment, buying cool cds, while slowly loosing their hair. .


i am SUCH a man.

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Having sold porn for several years, and having known many people in the business, both mainstream and alternative sides, I thought I'd contribute.
What could truly be defined as "gothic porn" is usually more focused on specific fetishes, with different aesthetics than the mainstream material. Where mainstream material might have the thin, implanted blonde, in gothic porn there isn't so much in the way of plastic surgery, the hair tends to be dark or multicolored, and tattoos and piercings are much more prevalent. Weight, body shape, and facial structure isn't as uniform. The same is true for the men, where there isn't so much a standard of the muscled male.
Power positions tend to be more open, where the focus isn't as centered on the man dominating the woman. Pure degradation is also not nearly as common. Bisexuality and homosexuality is more accepted, with the scenes more in depth, and not seeming so much like just token scenes, interims in the otherwise standard man-on-woman dynamic. While the homosexuality is usually more lesbian in nature, in either case, it seems like the people involved have actually been involved with people of the same sex in their private lives, so the scenes appear more realistic.
While there have been some efforts by the mainstream pornographic companies to "cash in" on the gothic community, their efforts are always quite blatant. Putting some mainstream actor, or actress, in the clothing or settings of the gothic community doesn't hide the fact that these people would rather being tanning, bleaching, and doing cocaine elsewhere. The most "genuine" gothic porn has a "by us, for us" approach, so that it feels like the people making and starring in it have some connection to the subculture.


Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:16 pm
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First off, there's the problem with identifying a "Goth Subculture." Frankly, the only people who would actually go around labeling themselves as "Goth" are ignorant teens desperately seeking some sort of identity, latching onto the image of dark clothing, dyed hair and garish make-up then spinning a Manson record and considering themselves officially "Goth." Soon thereafter the bad Emo poetry starts and it's all downhill from that moment.

This "Goth" thing was the result of a movement toward the end of the Punk scene some thirty years ago. Goth Punk was typified by dark, atmospheric droning and hopeless lyrics which embraced a sort of anti-heroic romanticism. Its progenitors tended to dress to accommodate the bleaker sound/imagery and added make-up for dramatic/theatrical effect.

The kids who call themselves "Goth" today know nothing of these acts and are aping an image/style that has been overdone and watered down for decades. It has little effect other than making it appear you're just starved for attention even as you deny you want it.

As far as "Goth" porn goes, it would simply involve a fetishization of what the cliched imagery of "Goth," as adopted by contemporary Mall culture, consists. Pale women wearing thick eye make-up, black latex clothing and either large, Frankengoth boots or the sleeker, high heeled variety. I suppose you could throw in fishnet stockings, plenty of piercings and tattoos as well. Anything that goes beyond the imagery has less to do with Goth and pertains more to each individual's sexual proclivities. Domination/Submission, Sadism/Masochism; these are not elements of a "Goth culture." They existed well before "Goth" and exist far outside of "Goth."

So there's your Goth Porn. In reality, a true Goth porno would most likely consist of a frustrated and socially inept couple meeting up at the club, deciding to take it back to one of their apartments, pour each other some cheap wine and read song lyrics to one another while Bauhaus plays softly in the background. If not too emotionally damaged from previous "relationships" they might decide to have a go at sex but it will be clumsy and awkward and they'll never speak to or see each other again. Just try getting off to that.


Last edited by devil on Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:29 pm
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devil wrote:
In reality, a true Goth porno would most likely consist of a frustrated and socially inept couple meeting up at the club, deciding to take it back to one of their apartments, pour each other some cheap wine and read song lyrics to one another while Bauhaus plays softly in the background. If not too emotionally damaged from previous "relationships" they might decide to have a go at sex but it will be clumsy and awkward and they'll never speak to or see each other again. Just try getting off to that.


Hm. Change "cheap wine" to "hydroponic weed and cheap vodka", "song lyrics" to "sandman", and "Bauhaus" to "Delirium", and it sounds like my typical MO.

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drok wrote:
Hm. Change "cheap wine" to "hydroponic weed and cheap vodka", "song lyrics" to "sandman", and "Bauhaus" to "Delirium", and it sounds like my typical MO.


This is why I love you people. Also, the occasional free drink.


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devil wrote:
In reality, a true Goth porno would most likely consist of a frustrated and socially inept couple meeting up at the club, deciding to take it back to one of their apartments, pour each other some cheap wine and read song lyrics to one another while Bauhaus plays softly in the background. If not too emotionally damaged from previous "relationships" they might decide to have a go at sex but it will be clumsy and awkward and they'll never speak to or see each other again.

Links! We need links! :lol:


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This is the only suicide girl I know

Image

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skywayman wrote:
drok wrote:
Hm. Change "cheap wine" to "hydroponic weed and cheap vodka", "song lyrics" to "sandman", and "Bauhaus" to "Delirium", and it sounds like my typical MO.


This is why I love you people. Also, the occasional free drink.


crap! now that hes in the band, who the hell is gonna buy us jag shots?

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DJ SLT (ATB) wrote:
alisgray wrote:
Peculiarly, some of the club nights and radio stations around here (*cough*chamber*cough* *cough*locustlecture*cough*)


Hey, I use goth & industrial to describe my show. Why didn't you make fun of me???


Because I am old, and have never properly managed to catch the KFAI signal at 2am. (though of course I am too ashamed to say so. But your set lists are still promulgating things I am very fond of, like Lush and Bowie.) I do have a few of your printed flyers left in my shop.


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Liighter wrote:
On a more serious note, if you want someone to weigh in on goth in any capacity look up Joshua Gunn, he's in the comm department at the Unviersity of Texas. Or Naida Zukic in the Comm department of the Southern Illinois University.


Aw. Academics UNITE! form of... ONE HAND CLAPPING!
(unfortunately I fear you're both too young to think that's funny.)


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alisgray wrote:
Almost no one involved with this board, formerly known as Gothling.com, seems to actually identify themselves as "goth" or "gothic" in public anymore. Peculiarly, some of the club nights and radio stations around here (*cough*chamber*cough* *cough*locustlecture*cough*) advertise as "Gothic/Industrial" but won't actually play much or any music usually identified as "gothic", sticking closely to the "industrial" side of that subcategory. I don't really understand why they still keep the G word in the advertising.


I've actually advocated strongly against using the g word for years, as it just seems to have embarrassing (or maybe I should stay outdated) connotations (capes? vampires? glam? guitars? too-much-reverb? spookiness?). Examining many of the music shows, club nights, and releases around the US (which is something I do compulsively) you'll notice that g-word has been dropped from the equation years ago. You haven't seen much goth played anywhere in the US (big exception is Noturna in Chicago; and I think there's something in New York). All the cool kids in north america are either on the terror-banana bandwagon, p noise, or the tbm crap (even futurepop has come under heavy fire within recent years).

They still do the goth thing in europe, so you can happily go to your eruo-festival which will feature Das Ich, Deine Lakaien, and the three bands claiming to bands claiming to be christian death. But nothing new has happened in goth for a very very long time -- it's been dead for a while.

But to answer your question about why we're still using the g-word -- simple habit (and I could never really bring myself to seriously use the word 'rivethead').


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Liighter wrote:
I've actually advocated strongly against using the g word for years, as it just seems to have embarrassing (or maybe I should stay outdated) connotations (capes? vampires? glam? guitars? too-much-reverb? spookiness?).


whatever, dood, i am TOTALLY gangsta.



also, side note, there is no such thing as too much reverb.

or, for that matter, hand claps.

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Crap, did we scare Mayuki off?


Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:18 pm
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Liighter wrote:
alisgray wrote:
Almost no one involved with this board, formerly known as Gothling.com, seems to actually identify themselves as "goth" or "gothic" in public anymore. Peculiarly, some of the club nights and radio stations around here (*cough*chamber*cough* *cough*locustlecture*cough*) advertise as "Gothic/Industrial" but won't actually play much or any music usually identified as "gothic", sticking closely to the "industrial" side of that subcategory. I don't really understand why they still keep the G word in the advertising.


I've actually advocated strongly against using the g word for years, as it just seems to have embarrassing (or maybe I should stay outdated) connotations (capes? vampires? glam? guitars? too-much-reverb? spookiness?). Examining many of the music shows, club nights, and releases around the US (which is something I do compulsively) you'll notice that g-word has been dropped from the equation years ago. You haven't seen much goth played anywhere in the US (big exception is Noturna in Chicago; and I think there's something in New York). All the cool kids in north america are either on the terror-banana bandwagon, p noise, or the tbm crap (even futurepop has come under heavy fire within recent years).

They still do the goth thing in europe, so you can happily go to your eruo-festival which will feature Das Ich, Deine Lakaien, and the three bands claiming to bands claiming to be christian death. But nothing new has happened in goth for a very very long time -- it's been dead for a while.

But to answer your question about why we're still using the g-word -- simple habit (and I could never really bring myself to seriously use the word 'rivethead').


There are certain area's of the country where Goth is still fairly big. I am playing at a festival in NC next month that will be heavy Goth (I don't know what I am going to play), they have a monthly night there that is almost exclusively Goth. They are also hugely into Steampunk

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:47 am
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dj_craig wrote:
Liighter wrote:
alisgray wrote:
Almost no one involved with this board, formerly known as Gothling.com, seems to actually identify themselves as "goth" or "gothic" in public anymore. Peculiarly, some of the club nights and radio stations around here (*cough*chamber*cough* *cough*locustlecture*cough*) advertise as "Gothic/Industrial" but won't actually play much or any music usually identified as "gothic", sticking closely to the "industrial" side of that subcategory. I don't really understand why they still keep the G word in the advertising.


I've actually advocated strongly against using the g word for years, as it just seems to have embarrassing (or maybe I should stay outdated) connotations (capes? vampires? glam? guitars? too-much-reverb? spookiness?). Examining many of the music shows, club nights, and releases around the US (which is something I do compulsively) you'll notice that g-word has been dropped from the equation years ago. You haven't seen much goth played anywhere in the US (big exception is Noturna in Chicago; and I think there's something in New York). All the cool kids in north america are either on the terror-banana bandwagon, p noise, or the tbm crap (even futurepop has come under heavy fire within recent years).

They still do the goth thing in europe, so you can happily go to your eruo-festival which will feature Das Ich, Deine Lakaien, and the three bands claiming to bands claiming to be christian death. But nothing new has happened in goth for a very very long time -- it's been dead for a while.

But to answer your question about why we're still using the g-word -- simple habit (and I could never really bring myself to seriously use the word 'rivethead').


There are certain area's of the country where Goth is still fairly big. I am playing at a festival in NC next month that will be heavy Goth (I don't know what I am going to play), they have a monthly night there that is almost exclusively Goth. They are also hugely into Steampunk


Definitely. He's talking about http://www.eccentrikfestival.com . They have an amazing lineup this year. I can add LA and SF to the list of some major happenings in deathrock/gothic/steampunk/h-punk/cabaret noir etc. Lot of new bands. It's silly for anyone to be for or against how (or whether) other people choose to self-identify with much of anything. It contradicts the original experiment (a lot of which was tongue-in-cheek).

J


Last edited by Jason NOH on Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:00 am
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Liighter wrote:
They still do the goth thing in europe...
But to answer your question about why we're still using the g-word -- simple habit (and I could never really bring myself to seriously use the word 'rivethead').


Someday I will get to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitby_Gothic_Weekend">Whitby</a>. I don't feel the need to try Treffen or Me'Luna.

Part of what charms me about Goth is the ability to embrace the absurd. It has been a long time since I craved to be always taken seriously. I suddenly wonder what the percentage of crossover there is between Industrial music and the military.

If LL is no longer about goth, maybe they ought to relinquish that word and let someone else have a program based on it. Or, bring in someone who DOES know and love that genre. Clearly there are folks in town who have never give up on it.


Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:27 am
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What the hell is all this music talk doing in the porn thread?!?


Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:08 pm
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devil wrote:
Crap, did we scare Mayuki off?


Hehe... no, not at all :)
I apologize for not showing up sooner. On the one hand, I do think it's important for me not to react at every single post and let the conversion flow a little and, on the other, I must admit that, well, I have been swamped with work (I ended up having to stop working and go to bed every day around 2 in the morning for the past 5 days or so :() and haven't yet found the time to sit and write a proper post in answer of your (very interesting) comments. Tomorrow afternoon, I should be home earlier with some free time on my hands, I'll make this forum my first stop, I promise!
I can already say I find your answer (that of frustrated and socially inept couple) extremely interesting. It goes hand in hand with a comment I received on another forum from someone who said something to the effect that goth sex would be something like no sex at all.
Again, thanks for your answers! They are very helpful! I'll make sure to comment more thoroughly on them tomorrow :)


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Well then, for the record I've never once had Goth sex. Even with myself.


Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:01 am
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Mayuki wrote:
It goes hand in hand with a comment I received on another forum from someone who said something to the effect that goth sex would be something like no sex at all.


why would you even ask this question on retardedasexualgothicevangilists.com?

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I would recommend "In The Flat Field" (The Bauhaus Album) if you really want to fuck to it. Good cadence and a lot of room for spontaneity. I think part of the point we are almost making without making: "goth porn" amounts to mental masturbation. I don't equate other people fucking on film with sex though. Music is infinitely more important. :lol: :wink:

J


Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:25 am
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there is only one good type of music for fucking: happy hardcore.

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Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:53 am
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thosquanta wrote:
there is only one good type of music for fucking: happy hardcore.


Yah H/C is way more fun to fuck to . If people want "goth sex" though, it's hard to beat that album for spontaneity.


Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:58 am
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you people need to invest in some Al Green and Barry White.

NOW

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Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:22 pm
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fuck that slow shit. HAPPY HARDCORE.


or, if shes into the kinky shit, delta 9 will do in a pinch.

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I like to listen to thosquanta while looking at goth porn.


:o

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we should really get jen to pose for something a bit more risque then, eh?

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thosquanta wrote:
we should really get jen to pose for something a bit more risque then, eh?


Like a panda costume?


Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:16 pm
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Hello everyone! Here are some of my comments/questions, as promised :)
I need to point out that, while I try to respond to people individually, these questions are of course meant to everyone. Also, you don't need to stick to them and you are more than welcome to react to the more general points offered by my very first message or other messages than came afterwards (if that makes any sense :P)

Alix (and Devil, to some extent): The issue of definition is definitely central and I do see how the "goth" term is particularly problematic in itself and how people tend today to stop wanting to identify with it. Personally, I don't have a specific definition of "Gothic", really, except the one that I have been taught and, well, the one that people here would be ready to offer. To sum it up briefly, I'd say that I personally view "Gothic" (with a capital G) as more related to the literary genre (from Walpole to the late Victorians, things kind of branched out after that, in my opinion (into sci-fi, horror, fantasy and other subgenres), "gothic" (with small g) would be more related to a movement that would consciously refer to that literary tradition with a bit of a nostalgic approach, and "goth" would be the punk-rooted emanation of that same gothic tradition and without that sense of nostalgia (for that Victorian/Edwardian past, that is. Nostalgia evidently plays an important part in Goth culture otherwise). So, in my view, you can still be, today, goth, gothic or, well, a little bit of both. Once again, these are, after all, only labels and the reality is a lot more fluid.

Liighter: Thanks for your comments :) No, the way you describe things, I feel that you say (tell me if I'm wrong) that these "photographers" were, at least in the beginning, people who did belong to the scene but which, out of vanity (and greed?), saw a way to make money, am I right? Do you think it has always been the case? Do you have specific examples in mind?
The way you correlate the music aspect and sexuality is of course also quite interesting. If, for some reason, "good music" and a more overt expression of sexual desires might not, as you seem to hint at, really go well together, does that mean, once again, that, intrisincally, the goth/industrial scene is (or "should"?) all in all, rather rejecting of sex in general if it wants to retain its specificity? Could we say that sex (in general) cheapens it?
Thanks for the names of professors! We're talking about this guy (http://www.joshiejuice.com/blog/) and this woman (http://www.siu.edu/cola/spcm/faculty/Zukic.pdf), right?
Oh, and, you're going to have to enlighten me about what "the terror-banana bandwagon, p noise, or the tbm crap" all mean ... :)

Haakon: Thanks for your contribution! I think the idea of a "more realistic" depiction of sexuality as a token of what "goth porn" is about is really interesting and, in fact, something that people from other forums have also been hinting at. Why is it so, you think? I mean, why is it that "naturalness" should be something that define a more "alternative" form of erotica/pornography. I see how, ironically, looking natural actually defies mainstream representations (which have often been criticized for their unnaturalness), but then, isn't it somehow a little ironic (again) that a subculture which - I think - is also a bit characterized by theatricality (not in the pejorative sense of the term, by the way) and exagerations (I'm thinking "shock value" here) should insist on the fact it prefers the "natural" or, I should say, "less staged" productions?
The concept of a more "fluid" erotic/porn gender-wise is also fascinating. Can you think of particular examples?

Dj_Craig: Hi! :) Now, I hadn't even thought of Steampunk... does that movement in any way have its own erotic/pornographic emanations?

Alisgray: I like that idea of the "ability to embrace the absurd" being part of what makes goth, well, goth. We might link that to the comment that "burlesque" (on another forum, I think... I get confused sometimes ;)), like that of Dita Von Teese, is a "genre" that combines well with the idea of "goth erotica". Would you agree?

Drok: Hehe... actually, I believe the people that mentionned it didn't mean it in a religious way at all. It was more like, "well, if sex is the mainstream, then maybe no-sex could be our way to fuck the mainstream"...

Noh: Cool! I will check the album! (we talked abouy Joy Division yesterday in class, and our professor hinted briefly at Bauhaus, so that's definitely a band I want to check out ;))

DJ SLT: We're talking about this band (http://www.thosquanta.com/), right?

Phew!... that was a long post... sorry guys. Again, thank you for your comments and, well, don't hesitate to keep them rolling! ;)

Mayuki


Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:48 pm
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Oh, and, I have a picture avatar, now! :)


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Dammit. My picture disappeared. Sexy Losers must not like direct linking...

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oh, wow, my account is still going. I think it's been years since I posted. But I saw the word "porn" and had to.

That said, I like my porn written down. I love trashy bodice-ripping romance novels, which I've heard referred to as "porn for housewives". I most enjoy Regency/period/historical romance novels, which are very goth in that they often take place in dark castles, with brooding, dangerous, black-clad heroes and heroines in petticoats. Plus, lots of throbbing and heaving and glistening. Can't forget the heaving bosoms and throbbing manhoods (what exactly is the plural for "manhood"? "Manhoods" just doesn't sound right...)

Historical romances are much better than the modern ones because romance novels usually describe people's clothes, and I just can't get into it if the hero is described wearing khakis and tennis shoes. Call me picky, but no matter how quickly said clothes come off, I have to be able to at least somewhat deal with the characters' aesthetic tastes, which is unfortunate considering my love of goth dudes. Loosen that cravat and come to mama...

For more info: www.smartbitchestrashybooks.com is one of my favoritest blogs of the moment.


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Little Red Hen wrote:
oh, wow, my account is still going.


We don't delete accounts. We have too much love. This is secretly a hippie forum. However your email address is bouncing.

Little Red Hen wrote:
I think it's been years since I posted.


Thu Sep 14, 2006, almost exactly two years.


Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:41 pm
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Mayuki wrote:
Liighter: Thanks for your comments :) No, the way you describe things, I feel that you say (tell me if I'm wrong) that these "photographers" were, at least in the beginning, people who did belong to the scene but which, out of vanity (and greed?), saw a way to make money, am I right? Do you think it has always been the case? Do you have specific examples in mind?
The way you correlate the music aspect and sexuality is of course also quite interesting. If, for some reason, "good music" and a more overt expression of sexual desires might not, as you seem to hint at, really go well together, does that mean, once again, that, intrisincally, the goth/industrial scene is (or "should"?) all in all, rather rejecting of sex in general if it wants to retain its specificity? Could we say that sex (in general) cheapens it?
Thanks for the names of professors! We're talking about this guy (http://www.joshiejuice.com/blog/) and this woman (http://www.siu.edu/cola/spcm/faculty/Zukic.pdf), right?
Oh, and, you're going to have to enlighten me about what "the terror-banana bandwagon, p noise, or the tbm crap" all mean ... :)


Alright, not to do your homework for ya, but I’ll try to deal with your questions (my original response was more tongue-and-cheek).

First let’s start with the notion of anything like a sub-culture existing. Dealing with situations like this it’s hard to explain as to what qualifies as a sub-culture and how it works it’s much more productive to just refer to it as a “scene.” There’s a seminal book in the sociology/cultural-studies field called “Subculture: the Meaning of Style” (Hebdige), which gives an interesting analysis of the british punk movement in the 80s. One of the observations often stated about the book, is that Hebdige talks about everything but the actual music. So one way to look at thi,s is that it’s much more useful to look at social phenomenon such as punk not as a subculture, but as a scene, not necessarily having anything to do with the music.

A “scene” is not really some stable entity that could be given a strict scientific definition. Rather, a scene could be described as a heterogeneous site/sight of social interaction encompassing a variety of different interests, styles, and ambitions. So were people that take the pictures of the naked girls with tattoos and black hair originally ‘goth?’ Well, probably not, but it doesn’t really matter. The tourists that come along for the ride are also a part of scene (I don’t know what their music tastes are, and it doesn’t really matter).

Does sex cheapen “the scene?” Easy reductive answer – yeah. But I think it’s a lot more complicated. At the end of the day one of the main spaces you’re working with in a “scene” is “da club.” People that go to clubs mainly go for social interaction, alcohol, possibly dancing, and to try to facilitate getting laid. If you take the “sex” out of the equation, going to a club becomes a lot less appealing. Though the obvious downside is that more on-lookers start to show up, and there’s often times a correlation with the music getting worse. Eventually, this starts alienating patrons that came for the music (this is a phenomenon that occurs in many scenes in the US). But could a scene survive without tourists or eye-candy? (it can, but it’s a lot harder) – think paradox.

But now let’s get back to the music. Like I said earlier a “scene” doesn’t necessarily have much to do with music. The goth/industrial scene tends to hold together a variety of different (sub?)genres of music which don’t necessarily mesh well together: goth (which is slowly becoming an anachronism), industrial, EBM, futurepop, synthpop, aggro-tech, power noise, IDM, and some angstier top-40 stuff (and all these subgenres can be infinitely enumerated). You probably can look those up on wikipedia to get a social shut-ins definition of what they mean.

(and yes, you got the names of the professors that I recommended right)


Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:03 pm
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if this were for an anthropology class there would indeed be some use for "culture" and "subculture." but I defer to your background in literature and its conventions, Liighter. sounds like an interesting book. I may have to pick that one up myself.


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When it comes down to it, I find pornography to be exceedingly boring no matter what genre.


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You're doing it wrong.


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i have to agree with devil on this one.

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